Last night we had quite a discussion (or many discussion) about a number of great issues. The things that we talked about are immensely responsible for shaping our worldview, so I think in that sense it was very productive and hopefully edifying. But...first of all I need to apologize, I realize that it is lame to apologize through a blog and I will apologize in person next meeting but I don't want my defensive and disrespectful posture to affect the way you read the book, thus crippling it's ability to impact you. I got defensive to be honest because first of all the book has radically changed my life. It was the first thing that showed me the hope God gives us that there is another way to live other than the options the world gives us. We don't have to succumb to materialism nor do we have to force ourselves into a life of self-absorbed asceticism. We don't have to choose between the conservatism or liberalism, pacifism or violence, or any other dualistic understanding of reality. Instead we get to follow the Third Way, Jesus' Way, which always transcends the only two options that our culture gives us.
So I really appreciate you all who have grounded me in this. And I pray that I become less bull-headed in the future.
Here is the clip that I promised to post. The Psalters are a freakin' amazing musical group that have adapted a nomadic lifestyle in order to flush greed out of their lives. This is not the only way to be a Christian, but it is a way to follow Christ. Please leave comments on your thoughts on the video and continuations on the discussion(s) we had. Thanks guys.
Also, I am putting what we are reading and the location of the meetings on the right hand column. So you can always stay up to date by checking there. And please let me know if you are not going to be at a meeting or if you are not going to come anymore. My feelings won’t be hurt, I promise.
10 comments:
Well, I just wanted to say that I haven't been offended really by this book. I'm not saying you thought I was Robbie, but just in case you did, I wanted to clarify. I know you guys know that I've lived in Morocco for the past 9 years, but I just wanted to expand a little on how that's affected me culturally (I don't really like just telling people randomly about it in public, just cause it might sound brag-ish, so I thought this would be a good place).
Everything I'm going to share has to do with why I haven't been offended by this book.
First off, in my family, there has always been a little financial trouble (as a director of a school my dad made about half the money than he did in CA as a teacher). As a result, we didn't have the option of many "material" things to get caught up with, especially since most people in Morocco were way worse off than we were. Our standard of living was still high compared to theirs, so we felt fine.
Also, my church view has been drastically changed over the years. After having been part of a home church for a few years (we stopped attending the Anglican church in the city because it was so boring), every time we came back to CA and went to church, I felt really weird. Sure the message was great, but it didn't really seem like people ever got to know each other at church. It didn't feel like community (maybe that's was just me though). I know you guys have problems with the cultural American Curch as well, but the fact that I sort of grew up in a home church makes me less offended by snide remarks in the book about the culture of Christian America.
I could go on for a while about other smaller details that make me a bit of an alien to the US, but I won't. Again, I don't say this to brag or to point out how I'm different, I just wanted you guys to know a bit more of where I come from. That way if I say something weird or different, you can just think, "Yeah, well he grew up in Africa. What do you expect?"
Anyways, I hope I made sense.... I'm very much enjoyed this book, though. And by the way, I'm not the only alien here. Remember that we're citizens of heaven, and that if we don't fit in too well, then we're on the right track.
-Jeremiah
I love that... "He grew up in Africa, what do you expect." I am going to start to say that to you all the time. haha I love you Jeremiah and I am glad that you are in our group and in my life.
Scott Krueger talks about how all those economic systems are humanistic and often end up in humans trying to take matters into their own hands--elevating man to God's level.
I must say I have to disagree, to a certain extent. I think humans in general are humanistic. Blaming it on an economic system seems like a cop out. or something... I think a nomadic culture, one devoid of money or luxuries like that could also fall prey to the same problem.
Scott also says that these economic systems often lead to us thinking that we don't need eachother and that we don't need God. I think the opposite could also be argued. In a capitalistic society, everybody needs everybody else in order to survive. Without the baker, there's no bread, without the electric company, there's no electricity. the electric company needs bread to live and the baker needs electricity to bake. If you take one away, the other fails.
I don't think that we need to do away with systems that we create. I think when used correctly, systems are great! Plus, by doing away with all systems, all you end up doing is creating a new system...
I agree that everything belongs to God, but I also think that God blesses us with material things and lets us use them.
I know you (robbie) don't think that a nomadic lifestyle like the psalters' is the only way to be a Christian, and I know that I don't think that either, but that seems to be the message presented by Claiborne and the Psalters'.
DISCLAIMER: I'm a little stressed currently with THREE finals on tuesday and a crapload of work to do tomorrow, so forgive me if my words and thoughts are jumbly.
-andrew
I agree with you Andrew that Capitalism is a great system. It's at the least the best we got. I think it works because it attempts to deal with our human condition. The concept of using checks and balances in economics is genius.
But, I don't think the mutually dependent society that you refer to began in capitalism. Ancient communities have lived that way for thousands of years. This understanding of an economic community gave birth to the barter system, which many groups practice today (including many Christian communities) because they are convicted that it provides them with a greater sense of mutual dependency. Rather than an "invisible hand" determining how the market will work.
Capitalism, often in contrast to being driven by necessity, is driven by profit. While sometimes these look congruent, they often are not. Corporations have learned that it is possible to make a "need" that does not actually exist (which is why you will see fast food restaurants in countries without clean water). I like capitalism, but as followers of Christ we need to be certain that are capitalism has Kingdom principles, and that we are using it's strengths to our advantage to defeat it's weaknesses.
Also, I think we always need to be weary of earthly systems for no other reason than Christ tells us to. He tells Pilate that God's kingdom is "Not of this World". The ancient greek word kosmos, used for "world" in this passage is best translated as order or... system. Jesus is particularly telling Pilate that the kingdom of heaven no longer operates within the worldly methodology of doing things (because the worldly way of conquering was through coercion rather than submission and servitude), but has proclaimed a new way that transcends all "humanistic" ways.
I believe that is what the Psalters are trying to do. They have been convicted that the worldly system put before them is just not working, so they take a page from their ancestors and give a counter-cultural lifestyle a chance. Instead of operating within the system they attempt to live an alternative lifestyle based on the fruits of the spirit. I agree with you that because they are human (and I don't think that they would disagree) that there is the possibility for it to become self-centered, or elitist, or some other variation of sin like there is in all of our lives. But I believe that there attempt to live in a community where "no one claims any of his possessions as there own, but shares everything they have," is a biblical idea at minimum. And the attempt to completely trust God for one's provision stands in stark contrast to our culture, and extreme likeness to the ways of our forefathers.
I agree that God wants us to enjoy our blessings, as this verse points out. But it comes with a warning.
1 Timothy 6:17
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment."
Lastly, I am still having a hard time seeing how these guys are apparently coming off as having the corner on Christianity. When the founder of Awana (the children's scripture memorization program) came out and said that he thought a problem with Christianity in America was that children didn't memorize enough scripture, nobody accused him of being dogmatic and thinking that his conviction was the only way to grow stronger believers. So why when these guys present there personal story of how they came about finding an alternative way to live, people tear them apart. Especially when there are literally hundreds of verses to back-up what they are doing compared to less than a handful to support the Awana mission (not saying that Awana and scripture memorization isn't important, cuz it is, Stacy is actually an Awana leader).
This is absolutely not against you Andrew, or anybody specifically, I have just read a couple things lately that seem to get upset when anybody does anything radical with there conviction, even when they are not forcing it on anyone else. And I am truly striving to understand it.
I pray that this was more gentle and open-minded than the other night. If not, please forgive me and know that I sincerely love you all, and deeply value your opinions. I have already been pushed more in this small group than probably any other in recent years. peaceLoveHOPE
And I am terribly sorry that my last comment was so long.
Robbie, after briefly reading everything you wrote, I think I agree with all of it. I agree that there are flaws with a capitalist economic system and that there are other alternatives to it which may be less prone to a humanistic result.
I think part of the reason I don't like what the psalters are saying is from, like we talked about last thursday, the whole "guilty by association" thing. Scott mentioned the desert fathers being part of their influence. Well, part of the reason my family decided to leave South Hills was because they started doing weird things like that... looking to some of the teachings of the desert fathers, which my parents thought were really weird and messed up. I confess, I haven't done much (if any)research on the desert fathers, so I can't say what my opinion of them is. But if my parents are against it, I mostly like will share a similar viewpoint (my grandpa liked chevy, my mom liked chevy, i like chevy) that kind of thing. which I understand is definitely not the right way to form opinions, but I just wanted to let you know where I'm coming from. (in addition to the whole liberal/hippy thing that I talked about last thursday).
I would have to second what you ended with by saying that I am also being pushed more in this small group than in any other i've been in before, which I think is a good thing. YAY!!!
I totally feel you on the passing down through Generations thing. The bible actually talks about this in the passage about "sins being passed down to the third and fourth generations." Not saying that liking Chevy or anything is a sin (haha), but it just shows how things are passed down from our parents. Not that we are accountable for what our father's have done, nor do we find redemption by the great things our father's are, but there is a legacy that is passed along to us. It is more of a systemic condition of influence that shapes who we are. You see this all the time with alcoholism. People are convinced they are hurting no one but themselves, but 95% of the time the children of alcoholics either become one themselves or starkly reject anything that has to do with alcohol. Either way they have been very effected by there father.
Pedro the Lion has a song that mentions this on the album Control.
The album follows a story of a man in an adulterous relationship. The line goes...
"Oh look there's Dad arriving home, all the children hug his neck, unaware of there inheritance."
The idea that his infidelity will have a profound effect on his children if it hasn't already. This all has almost nothing to do with what we're talking about, but it is a cool idea.
Also, I believe the desert fathers they are referring to our just the Jews of the Old Testament, who spent most of there time in the desert. Almost all of the Torah consists of the Jews wandering around in the desert. Every time they get a place of their own they screw it up and God says "back to the desert with you." So I fairly certain this is who they are referring to.
Lastly, I very much admire your vulnerability and honesty in this Andrew. It takes an immense amount of introspection to identify how one's thoughts and feelings have been shaped, and then to be honest about it after that is amazing. You rock Andrew.
I like how you think it's "a cool idea" that sins will be passed on to future generations, Robbie. Hahahah, dork.
-Jeremiah
Haha. Smartass.
I mean it is cool how we can trace our inheritance and thus better understand who we are, for the better or the worse. Hypothetical situation... say your father is a man who has devoted his life to schooling people in Africa, you might end up valuing school very highly because you have seen that there are some people who can't go to school at all. Which would make it so that you don't miss a single class all semester. Hypothetical situation.
Or say your Dad works at a grocery store and didn't go to school but always tells you that a formal education is the most important thing in the world. You might end up hating school and missing more classes than you go to. Hypothetical situation.
I understand the concept that sins are passed on through generation, I just really thought your wording was funny. That's all. I just wanted to be annoying, hehe.
-Jeremiah
Post a Comment